4th Edition is out already? I will have to try to download it if i is. I will be sure to buy it if I think it is an improvement but I would not subject it to the players at my table unless they all wanted to.

Some of the ideas coming into it were really good. I want to see if it lives up to the "Mission statements".

I thought there was some preview day recently that let some people see it and playtest.

I think I like this rant about the review Bayou posted, it just made me laugh. Not to mention kinda rung true.

Karloff

Smells funny ...
by Metrolang

Massawyrm, you are one of my favorites to read on here but this whole thing reeks. It smells like WotC has giving AICN a nice chunk of change and some free swag for a nice review. It reminds me of Harry's review for Cloverfield where JJ Abrams must've given that fat bastard a sweet hand job in exchange for a sweet review. What was wrong with 3.5? I don't think people get table-top RPGs at all. Or maybe i've been playing them wrong all my life. The rules are guidlines people. Guidelines. They are not to be enforced at the cost of fun. Read the DMs guide, it says it there many times that rules are optional. All rules. D & D and most other RPGs are what you make of it so if you don't have fun or you think it is too stuffy and rules heavy then it is your own fault. I've been playing 3.5 for a few years now with a group that loves it and gets upset when a session is cancelled and it is not because 3.5 is some genius game, it is because we have a frack-load of fun playing it. If you are a rules obsessed sissy then you wont have fun with any RPG and should stick to video games. If you can't cast a spell because the rules don't apply but the logic of your campaign does and the players don't see a problem then cast your spell. Is the book going to warn some rules police? Is the game going to crash? Ever heard of cheat codes in video games? Well the DM and players in an table-top RPG are the cheat codes and you can manipulate the game in any way so that YOU can have as much fun as YOU want. This review reminded me of many players who would sit in our sessions and complain that we didn't follow the rules of encumberance. If the rule interrupts the fun then frack encumberance and frack the rule. Your whole whole statement about characters sitting around doing nothing because they are out of spells or what not is a sign to me that your DM sucks and can't properly control the game and keep all players interested and with something to do. The group I played with now was confused at first because I stressed that they did not have to build a party. One guy did not have to feel forced to make the cleric just because we needed a cleric. I said for them to make the characters that they want to play and i'll take care of the rest. I'll figure out how to give them things to accomplish. That IS the job of the DM. That is the point of NPCs. That is part of what D & D is about, creating a world for characters to exist in that feels natural. I think WotC created 4E just to make it easier for the dummies and because they realized 3.5 had run its course and all the rich kids that could actually afford the billions of books already bought them so it was time to give them something new to waste money on. WotC has to create a new verion of D & D every so often because they don't know who to sell it to any more so their only option is to keep siphoning money out of the diehards who have loved D & D for decades now. They don't create anything fresh or innovative because there is no need to. It is like EA actually putting some effort into Madden; why should they bother? They know the diehards will keep coming back for more without question or complaint.

Next week, I'll have the opportunity to play in a demo game.  I'll post a review afterwards.

I'm still sold on OD&D and AD&D 1e, so I already know how I'll have to go about this.  That is, I'll have to forget that the name of the game purports to be Dungeons & Dragons, just like I had to forget that the current version is referred to as Dungeons & Dragons.  Both 3.5 and 4e must be viewed w/o comparison to the previous editions of the game.  Why?  Well, because 3.5 was such a significant departure of how the game was previously played, that it warrants being considered a new game.  4e will be the same way, from what I can see so far.

That said, whereas I'm very disappointed in the direction taken by 3.5, I'm at least interested in what 4e has to show.  As I said, I'm just going to anti-mantra the name Dungeons & Dragons out of the way, and just experience 4e as some brand new RPG and allow it to stand or fall on its own (de)merits.

Let's see how it goes.

Which could mean it will appeal to online players and younger newbies.

So the question is, when those new players start to mature, will they want something more Role and less Role playing and can the system support that.

I know the healing thing was supposed to be a big deal... so what makes a mage or thief different from a cleric?

obviously your character is going to be weaker at first level than at 20th level.  i don't think they removed this from 4th edition.  as far as feeling completely useless is concerned... you can have that.  at the end of the day, the thing that turns me on to role playing games is story and character development.  if you're dming a game and you can't find a way to make an interesting story around competent characters, then you're a crappy dm.  even superman has complications, and a 1st lvl wizard isn't going to be superman no matter how streamlined 4th edition is.

So do we need a little area for our side 4.0 game. I think it is sufficiently enjoyable to keep doing it on the side whenever someone does not show up.

I have been reading 4.0, and I am trying to pick up the rules.