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Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ?? (Read 5620 times)
whodat3542
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #15 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 10:43am
 
thanks for throwing some stuff out there for me guys. i guess what i'm trying to figure out whether after finding a gaming group on this site whether it would be worth purchasing a 4.0 guide from a bookstore or whether to just stick to 3.5 ?
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Adam
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #16 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 1:05pm
 
OR.... you can download all the 4e books in PDF format from a torrent site and check them out.

BUT, if you are trying to decide if 4e is worth playing here's my advice: YES
The differences between 3.5 and 4e are irrelevent. The fact is that most D&D games are moving towards 4e (and Pathfinder) because it IS the most current edition. It is the game that is recieving updates, player feedback, rules revisions, and new product delevopement. There are those of us at my game that reminice about AD&D all the time, but we aren't going back to it. It's like playing an MMO without the new expansion, sure it's familiar and you rock at it, but everyone else has kinda moved on.

Another suggestion coming from someone that just started RPGs after 10+ years of not playing, go to where the games are first. You can find all kinds of people and groups here. Come hang out at a game or two, or find a game with an opening. Someone will let you borrow their book to look over or create a character if you don't want to pirate the PDF file. Observe or play, or both! And then make a decision on whether you like the system or not. Many other games have been retooling their systems into new editions for the past couple of years, and there is a lot out there to see.
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yle-kay
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #17 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 1:29pm
 
Be careful about advocating illegal activities in a public forum.
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Adam
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #18 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 8:46pm
 
Okay... if your scared, you can still download the PDF file LEGALLY at a discounted purchase price from the publisher.

People just have to say something huh?
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #19 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 9:32pm
 
Unfortunately, WotC no longer offers their books in PDF format - time for you to fire up the ol' BitTorrent client.

@hewhorocks: I understand what you're saying completely - a lot of the combat mechanics in 4E are meaningless without a grid...  if you use them.  Regarding the disruption of balance: I disagree.  The powers are all pretty similar to each other; removing push/pull/blast/zone/etcetera from all powers actually preserves this balance.  Damage is similar from class to class, too, and would remain the same whether or not you're using a grid.  If NO power uses a certain mechanic, balance persists.
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #20 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 10:35pm
 
I don't give a plop what you do (or I do for that matter), I just don't believe it's kosher for public forums.
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hewhorocks
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #21 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 10:38pm
 
Well, removing  all combat capabilities from characters creates balance as well though I would argue your now then playing 4th ed D&D at all. In our game combats have swung wildly on the application of a slows, on pushes and slides, and on dazes.  The application of which are the entire basis for some characters combat effectiveness. Removing or reducing the application of these mechanics greatly restricts the diversity of available tactics.  The presentation of tactics is in my opinion the significant difference in 4th edition.

As to damage being roughly equal I have to disagree. A heroic tier (say 5th level) ranger can be built fairly easily to open an encounter with an attack of 3d12 (great bow)+2d8 (quarry) +6 (ability mod) rerolling a miss. Add in a level appropriate magic bow and on a critical we are talking 48 + 4d8. With the use of an action point it is almost a foregone conclusion that our elven ranger friend here could dish 110+ damage on any round that he needed to. (Minotaur of the maze meet Arenandis he will be eating your lunch today) Nothing about a wizard can go near that in terms of damage until….Well I would guess late paragon tier (17~20th level.) Then again an orb wizard's ability to daze and slide a single target every turn or control large portions of the battlefield can have a much larger effect on a combat than raw damage numbers.

Pulling out the mechanics pulls the balance apart not only because damage outputs are so varied it destroys balance because many of the base classes are specifically designed to take advantage of particular mechanics. Fighters get durability but at the cost of wide and free access to certain mechanics. Removing access to those mechanics across the board removes the opportunity cost the fighter has to pay for having so much durability. Conversely controllers have a wide variety of mechanics or status effect to impart and they pay for it in terms of durability and damage potential. Removing any or all mechanics reduces the characters effectiveness without compensating for it elsewhere.  The removal of every mechanic would elevate those characters without access to or with ordinary defenses for those mechanics.   Low Will defense isnt much of a weakness when the only thing that attacks will are minor damaging effects without any status effects (cause they are redlined out.)
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hewhorocks
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #22 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 10:39pm
 
By the way I have it on good authority that Yle-Kay does give plop. Good plop if the rumors are to be believed.
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #23 - Jul 30th, 2010 at 11:33am
 
As for gridless vs grid: if the DM and players can communicate well enough, then the grid isn't necessary in 4e. All one must do is multiply a given number of squares (say 4 squares) by 5, call it "feet" instead of squares, and you are all of a sudden playing 3.xx combat with different power names and more character balance. Granted, 4e combat rules were basically made for grids, but it doesn't mean you must play with a grid if that is the deal-breaker. I've played plenty of both systems, and 3.xx could get complicated if some players and/or the DM had a different imaginary vision of the battle. The more complicated it got, the harder it was to follow in one's head, making a mapping tool of some sort very handy, at the very least. 4e just cut the crap and based combat around it, which weirds out some people, apparently.

In any case, character conversations and non-combat activity are handled the same either way: the players and DM act like their characters communicating, and describe picking up something, and the game rolls on. The DM might insert "roll Stealth" rather than "roll Move Silently and also roll Hide" when the player wants to move unnoticed, but rules-junkies like the overly detailed specific rules of 3.5 for that, and that's fine. If you want to play a character, it can be done in any system. It then comes down to whether you want actions to be simple and more balanced or detailed and more complicated with dice needed as to which system you choose.

The books only explain rolling dice for actions and combats; playing your character is up to you whether you play 3.xx, 4e, GURPS, WoD, or whatever. So find a game, check it out, then pick the system based on what appeals to your rolling style and based on who you find playing what so that you can play the game and have fun (you don't want to pick a system only to play with losers like me....)

Hope that helps. And, regarding bit torrents, that should be off-the-radar, I'd think, for legal reasons and/or simple tact. Just because we know about bad things doesn't mean we can talk about them like we are participants. Besides, the hard books are better to have either way.  Roll Eyes
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #24 - Jul 30th, 2010 at 7:26pm
 
Adam wrote on Jul 29th, 2010 at 1:05pm:
OR.... you can download all the 4e books in PDF format from a torrent site and check them out.


It is the official policy of this forum that we don't support or encourage illegal activity.  Free speech allows you to talk about illegal activities in a general way but specifics on how to perform illegal acts will be removed.
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #25 - Jul 30th, 2010 at 9:29pm
 
I remain unconvinced that a typical 4th ed game could be run effectively without a grid. Even with the conversion of squares to feet (which is done in the narrative voice in most games anyway) the tactical nature of encounters seems to necessitate that a map be used. Granted a DM with a tactical map hidden from players view could be constantly described but the tactical minutia would seem to require that narrative from each perspective be provided on each initiative count as it arrives, or only on prompting  by each player. Though many at will powers provide say slide effects or aura effects or zones  and require precise placement for full utilization.

Players frequently presented with complex tactical issues like attacking from points which may require movement through an ongoing effect, or may provokes opportunity attack or allows you to be flanked depending on the route you take. Not to mention the Rune priests leadership aura allows you a bonus to hit if within 10 feet though cover would be  granted to the enemy if you are within that zone because of the terrain …unless the priest climbs up on the difficult terrain… though then he grants combat advantage to the lurker. 4th ed combat out of the box can easily be more complex than chess considering the variety of tactical concerns. That’s not to say you couldn’t ignore those tactical concerns  the game could probably still be fun and provide great RP possibilities. You could play Monopoly without the railroads, utilities and hotels  .still might be fun but its not the full Monopoly experience.
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #26 - Aug 2nd, 2010 at 2:45pm
 
I think Hew is on to something here. No one is arguing that you can't handwave half the combat rules, what is being said is that basically the essence of what 4e combat has become will be gone. You might as well just roll opposed Fate dice and the victor gets to describe the outcome.

And while we are talking about grid battle, I have a question. Is there friendly fire from blast, burst, and other area effect powers?
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #27 - Aug 2nd, 2010 at 3:17pm
 
it depends.  some powers effect just enemies while others effect all creatures.  im sure a dm could house rule that they dont effect friends but that would effect some of realism.
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Re: Differences between 3.5 & 4.0 ??
Reply #28 - Aug 2nd, 2010 at 4:00pm
 
Or at the very least have some effect on how you describe the power. There is nothing that says that all enemies in burst 2 dont get their own invidual "fire tendral" instead of one big "Fire ball" blasting everything but friends.
Most powers descibe who it effects in the target entry.

Using "opposed fate rolls" however is a viable method of RP though thats another thread I think..
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