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What is with all the systems? (Read 3823 times)
Adam
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What is with all the systems?
Jul 19th, 2010 at 5:05am
 
Anyone else think this hobby can be rediculous expensive just investing in rulebook material alone? Let alone all the accessories to the hundreds of systems and multiple campaign settings for each. Then figure in the time and energy spent memorizing at least core mechanics (just to avoid spending an hour flipping pages to resolve basic encounters) and you have on your hands almost a full blown career! The gaming companies should be paying ME, or at the very least we should get a tax write-off, lol.

I bring this up in the debate forums because sometimes I just want to jump into a strange world and have some fun where the action never stops, and I never need a "time out" for a rule check. On Friday I want to captain a space frigate carrying cargo for a distressed people on a distant planet. And on Saturday I may have to use my arcane gifts to fend off the legions of chaos.

I have looked for a system that is both universally versatile without being immensely complicated. If anyone here is thinking about putting up a response with "GURPS" in it, move along. Your right, it can handle just about anything. It also takes about as long to master as a monk takes to reach enlightenment.

So, let's discuss it guys and gals. What are some great universal systems and what are some great ways to keep playing fast paced?
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hewhorocks
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #1 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 6:17am
 
Remember that the system is the game. The story is built using the game's structure. Some structures tell some type of stories better than others. You can use whatever rules or none at all to tell your story. The more situations the game covers in detail the more complex the rules. You can get together with your friends and play coinflip fantasy, or sci fi or double-o coin-flip. At some point though you are playacting or doing improv not “gaming”.

What game is perfect for you, your story, your tastes? Hard to say. While we all prefer different systems for different reasons the systems are there to share a basis or understanding for task resolution between the players. You could resolve any task with coin flips if you wanted. Simple, easy, though I'd wager the number of folks you'll get to maintain interest in that are few.

There are ways to play in any genre without complex rules to learn in a near limitless number of scenarios with an almost never ending number of players. Ready? Wii, Playstation, Xbox.  Still no matter how much you play Halo, WoW, or Star-trek online, your not gaming. You arent a gamer till you think fondly of pulling an all-nighter around a table with some friends eating junk food, drinking caffeine and plotting the lives of fictional characters of your own creation.

We came across a topic something like this during our game this weekend.  At our session we were discussing the state of gaming and essentially we boiled down the sentiment I think your posts portrays in this manner. If you truly lament the "time and energy" spent in learning games,  You are not a gamer.

Nothing wrong with that. My wife isnt a gamer. She played magic and was involved in a d20 campaign or two, shes great and I love her, but she's not a gamer. The joy in finding an elegant system of task resolution or in discussing reasonable methods of portraying 3-d combat on a 2-d map are lost on her.

Gaming is a hobby. There isnt a perfect manifestation of the hobby. You could write your own rules and they could be perfect for you. (a gamer thing to do for sure) but if you think learning rules is time consuming try writing consistent ones!

Good luck on your journey to find your gaming grail but know this...its your own personal Shambhala .
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #2 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 1:39pm
 
With that said, I would recommend Savage Worlds.  Core rules = $10, and there are lots of free conversions to other game systems all over the internet.  We spent maybe an hour making characters for 5 people, then we were good to go.  Our current game is "Savage Eberron", a conversion from D20 Eberron to Savage Worlds.  It is rather fun.
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #3 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 3:34pm
 
Although it has been years since I 'used' the system I am currently rediscovering it.  What system?  Basic RolePlaying.  I am currently reading the BRP Core (Golden) Rulebook as well as the Call of Cthulhu 6ed Rulebook (also BRP).  Years past I ran a few Stormbringer games and a few ElfQuest games, both of which use the BRP system.  I like this system because it is rules light (for the most part) and the rules tend to fade to the background with the story.  But the thing that got me is that it is a universal system and it is no where near as complex as GURPS.  It has been used as the core system for RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer (and Elric), ElfQuest, Pendragon, SuperWorld, and I am sure I am missing one or two.

All the rules you need are in one book.  They basically took the core rules and refined them, then added options to make the game you want.  Running a dungeon crawl?  Most likely wont need to worry about Sanity.  Running a modern monster hunter type game?  Well then, sanity may come into it. 

There are no arbitrary levels or experience. Huh?   No what?  D&D has levels that tells what your character can and cant do.  GURPS, WoD, Shadowrun all have XP points that you spend to advance your character.  In BRP, characters advance by using their skills.  If a character uses a skill in a meaningful way and succeeds with the roll the GM has the player check a box next to the skill.  At the end of the adventure the GM calls for skill advancement rolls.  You roll your percentile against your skill, if you roll over your skill you get to add 1d10 points to your skill.  If you roll under your skill you did not learn enough from the experience to advance from it.

Task resolution is simple, you have a 57% swim skill so you have a 57% chance to swim across a river so you roll percentile.  If you roll under 57 you make it across with out any problems.  If you fail?  Well, that depends on the GM you can drown or the river carries you further down than what you wanted, right into the waiting arms of the bandits or what have you.

Now the downside (for a D&D type gamer).  This system is designed and has been used for gritty type gaming.  It is possible to one shot a character 5 minutes after you roll it up.  But, there are optional rules during character creation that will toughen up your character so it is a little more D&Dish.  Hit points are typically an average between your CON and SIZ which for a human would range between 3 and 21.  The optional rule (which I would use in a dungeon crawl type campaign) is to add the two together instead of averaging the two.

Just a couple of things that pop into my head about this system.  If you are interested in checking out the system I would recommend first reading the rule set as it pertains to a particular game.  So, read the Call of Cthulhu rule book or the CoC quick start guide first, then read the BRP Core book.  The core book does give examples but, at least for me, it is easier to read a rule set as it pertains to a particular setting.

Anyway, just some of my rambling thoughts that may or may not pertain to the original question.

K

EDIT: I think this may be the longest post I have ever done.  Shocked
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« Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2010 at 8:47pm by Kev »  
 
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Adam
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #4 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 3:36pm
 
Hew,

My point was how all consuming the gaming hobbies have become compared to other hobbies. I am glad that you pride yourself on being the very self proclaimed definition of "gamer", but my post was just meant to be a silly look at the unreasonable amount of time we spend and what is supposed to be an extra-curricular activity. I didn't mean to offend anyone by pointing out that so much time is spent on these games. I assumed that people could laugh at themselves a bit more, but considering the "nerd" culture makes up the majority of gaming communities, I can see where there might be some deep seated issues with teasing and confidence.

Rest assured that I meant no offence people, and when you read the part about tax breaks I hope you realize that I was writing the post to be funny. The overal question about a universal system IS relavent however. There are a few (GURPS, FATE, HERO, etc), and I was wondering if others knew of any more. You're right that my search for the perfect system would be my own, I wasn't asking everyone to join a union or only play a single system. As far as your group's defenition of "gamer" lol. Keep it, I'm good.
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Adam
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #5 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 3:38pm
 
Kaos and yle,

Thanks for the input. I am looking at the systems right now, and I really like it. I think it would be really fun to write a setting using these rules, and not nearly as time consuming as one might think.

I am finding that injecting story using improv is a great way to to keep things rolling. For example, I know what major events I want to happen, and I insert them at the most dramatic points available. But that's not all. I have begun to follow a pro-active view of GMing rather than a re-active. Always make something happen after a dice roll no matter what, that is the best rule ever. Never just stare at the players after they try something and say "that's not it." Make something happen to change the situation. Even a slight bit will keep the players' interested. EVEN on a failure something should happen.

Well keep the advice on the systems coming guys! Appreciate it.
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« Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2010 at 5:20pm by Adam »  

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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #6 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 9:10pm
 
I understand the point hewhorocks is making - that a "true gamer" is someone who enjoys not only the story/character aspect of gaming but also RPG systems for their own sake.  I'm definitely in that category - I buy rulebooks just to check them out, and I feel as though the more I'm exposed to different systems, the more knowledgeable and versatile of a gamer I become.

However, I get Adam's point, too.  While I do enjoy sitting on the toilet and reading sourcebooks for systems I will never play, I also realize that the market is pretty crowded; there is quite a large number of systems out there, and I can see how that could be a little overwhelming.

But Adam wasn't just talking about systems - he also mentioned campaign settings.  When it comes to campaign settings and supplements, I think gaming companies should be ashamed of themselves.  Gaming company board meeting example:

Guy 1: Hey, you know the fluff and flavor text we put into our rulebooks?
Guy 2: Yeah, what about it?
Guy 1: What if we made WHOLE BOOKS - no - ENTIRE PRODUCT LINES like that?
Guy 2: Great idea!
Nearby Cash Register: Cha-Ching!


Don't get me wrong - I enjoy the occasional campaign setting.  Dark Sun rules!  Eberron's not so bad, either.  But that stuff generally has no bearing on the GAME itself.  Lame!

The Manual of the Planes is a cool book because it shows you what you CAN do in a campaign and how a different setting can actually affect gameplay (e.g. gravity, time, effects from atmosphere in a plane, etc).  Dragonlance/Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms books, on the other hand, just contain a bunch of locations and NPCs for the lazy DM.  They're not even unusual settings - it's still your basic high fantasy.  Why not just read the book?  I can almost guarantee you that the Hickmans (Hickmen?) or Salvatore can do much more interesting things with their characters and world than you.  That goes for the Star Wars RPG, too.  Sorry, guys!

Main reasons I play RPGs:

1) I like complicated sets of rules as well as keeping track of weird details; I guess it's the scientist in me
2) I like rollin' dice
3) I like scorin' points and winnin' shit (XP, GP, spells, abilities, items, et cetera, ad nauseam; I guess it's the power gamer in me)
4) I like makin' stuff up

Sure, you still make stuff up in a campaign setting.  But the last thing I want is to DM a game, have an NPC say or do something, and have a player in my game "correct" me because what I have planned contradicts the events of some lame-ass Star Wars book that I have no interest in reading (note: I do not, in general, dislike Star Wars - it's just a good example of a very developed setting).  Maybe I'm a different type of gamer because I try so hard to come up with original content, but maybe in this context "different" could be translated as "more rad" or "less lame."


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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #7 - Jul 19th, 2010 at 10:14pm
 
Ok Beyonder, unfortunately I think I'm going to have to go to the opposite side of the room from you Smiley  I HATE the way a lot of games (WoTC and 4th ED I'm looking specifically at you) fill up their "campaign setting" books with crunch rather than fluff.  How many freaking "location specific" feats do you need?  Also, I really hate how they've taken something very cool and very setting specific like the Warforged and attempted to make them available in any setting. 
If I want rules and mechanics (and I do), I'll pick up a core rule book.  But when I specifically go and buy a campaign setting book, I want a setting.  I want to read the book and feel like I can actually visualize the place and the people who make up that setting.  I don't care how many prestige classes you can fit into the new Forgotten Realms book, instead I want to know who lives there, what the local economy is like, and WHY are there some many dungeons around there?  Did the area used to be a larger city that was destroyed?  Give me background and history. 
And also, there are some things that should not be statted out.  Those of you who remember Planescape and the Lady of Pain.  She was a entity who you were never supposed to meet or mess with, you saw her and you ran away as fast as your little Bariur legs could carry you.  She was a mystery and was supposed to remain as such, thats why she was cool.  And what happened?  WoTC gave her stats.  You give something stats and it makes some player thing, "Man, my ??lvl PC could totally take her, and he should!"

Sorry about the rant.  I agree reading new core mechanics can be fun but I also wholeheartedly support the development and fleshing out of campaign settings, cause (at least to me) reading those are a whole heck of a lot of fun. 

PS:  I've been looking at Chaosium's BRP system as well and I'd totally love to get a game for that going.
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #8 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 12:55am
 
Gaming isnt more expensive or time consuming than any other hobby unless you want it to be. 2 movie tickets with a popcorn and 2 sodas will set you back $40. I see maybe 15 films a year so thats $600? I'll wager 9 out of ten people who read this post have spent more on computer hardware in the last 5 years than on  rpgs. You could buy the core rulebooks for a different game for every night of the week and not spend as much as you would on a musical instrument suitable for a typical "hobbyist musician. " I spend maybe twice as much time playing guitar than gaming and an equal amount with my aquariums (not to mention kayaking, my dog, computer games, chess and  numerous other interests.)

Still to the OP's critique of  gaming (though more specificity gurps?) asking for something that covers every genre but isnt complicated is like asking an artist "whats the best color?" You need rules for every situation or environment you could come up with but are universally intuitive (so neither the referee nor players need to read them?)  I put it to the experienced gamers out there..Does gurps have to be complex?  My impressions of the game was that you can use what you want and discard what you dont and only use the supplements that appeal to you or your genre.

There are a number of systems out there as asked and answered in multiple  threads on this forums and others, but you cant get around the fact that an effective rpg experience requires an investment in time. The very least of which is reviewing the particular rules of the game. Much more important is crafting the setting and world view of the fictional environment. Just saying “its like star wars but 20 years in the future” only works if everyone playing has A. seen star wars and B. agrees on what would likely happen 20 years down the time-line.

My point is that RPG gaming involves a skill-set. Just like playing an instrument, fishing, embroidery or keeping physically fit. You get out of it what you put in. Complaining that you dont know the rules of game you want to play? Thats wanting to play like Clapton without learning about chords. Again we have video games (guitar hero ) for that for that. Not revoking anyone's mythical “gamer club card” but I'm pointing out that guitar hero isnt playing guitar. If you want the RP games experience you have to learn the game or figure out a way to fudge it. (Not an actual endorsement for the excellent fudge system. Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register;

Folks who play with me know Im not a rules guru, still if you cant "wing it for now" for the sake of the game, the rules system you adopt isnt likely to make a difference in the overall experience for everyone involved.

Despite what  we may wish for, making a setting come alive and running role-playing game are skills that are quite independent of  whatever rules system you choose and there are no short cuts in gaining those skills.  I guess what I'm saying is there is no gaming system thats going to be everything that you want unless you write it, then again that sounds like more work than most folks want to put in.
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #9 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 12:56am
 
I'm glad this turned into a real conversation and not an argument on who is a bigger/better fan of role playing. I think all your points are valid and lend some weight to the problems with how our games are marketed. Big example on the side of beyonder: WotC CHARGES A FEE FOR THE WEBSITE! I know porn sites that don't charge for christs sake
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #10 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 1:18am
 
As to the Fluff vrs Crunch argument I buy both.  I tend to dislike one disguised as the other though. I hate the fluff that has crunched its way into the 4th ed DnD core rulebooks. Try running a low magic 4th game to see what I mean. "Arrrg why can he teleport at lvl 1?"

Still the product life cycle of rpg games has come to the point were the very best years in terms of popularity are behind us. Game companies need to capitalize on either nostalgia or innovation to keep game designers employed. The steady stream of unnecessary supplements being supplied by game companies are not necessary to enjoy any particular game.

As the population of its typical customers moves into older age brackets with more sophisticated tastes (and greater experience gaming) many game companies require  more skilled/professional writers to do the job of making us part with our sheckles. This while the primary fantasy setting most familiar to people  has moved from LOTR to WoW.
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #11 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 1:34am
 
The core assumptions of the OP seemed to be

1) Game systems are to complex and offer to many choices
2) rules are to hard or bothersome to learn
3) Gaming takes to much time
4) Im not getting enough bang for my resources buck


The central question seemed to be:
"Is there a shortcut to having a system that covers everything without having to invest the time in learning it?"

Pointing out that video games fit the niche as portrayed isnt being elitist its simply pointing out that RPGs can customize the experience you create but that customization requires an investment in time and or money.

To the most recent post, while I think that D&D can be enjoyed without their insider  subscription program (and without anything but the core books) I think that the example given of "consumer surplus" being pornography websites is something that highlights the changing culture and what the competition is for gaming-hobby time/dollars.

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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #12 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 2:09am
 
If I recall correctly I have met and spoken to Adam at one of the meet-ups.  I may be jumping the gun here and if I am wrong he may jump in but I am going to defend his initial post...

Adam, like me a couple years ago, is coming back into gaming after a long hiatus (like 10 years or something). In that time a lot of new game systems have come out and old familiar systems are no longer familiar compared to what they were 'back in the day' (D&D for example). 

I know when I was coming back into gaming I spent some time looking around for games that would allow me to play multiple setting and genres without having to buy and play 20 different games.  I was not interested in spending a lot of money or time to try and find a game that would suit my tastes.  For example I did not want to spend $150 on 4 or 5 different systems and read them over just to find i don' care for the setting, genre, or ruleset. 

In my case I found GURPS and rather enjoy the system but it can be a very complex system but it can also be fairly straight forward and no more complicated that many of the systems available now.

From the way I read Adams post was along the same lines of thought I had when coming back into the hobby.  I also read his post as being exactly what I was looking for a few years ago.  "What your thoughts on a good universal system that does not require 3 different physics degrees to enjoy and play, but is still robust enough to be able to play what I want when I want."  I know "holy run-on-sentence" but I am sure you see my point.

Jumping out at Adam and basically slamming him and calling him a "not a real gamer" is a little overboard.  Yes, he may have gone about framing the point of his post a little better as to avoid misunderstandings.  But he is coming back from a long time off so I can understand where he is coming from, maybe a little better than most of the 'real gamers' on the boards.

K
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #13 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 4:52am
 
I took the OP at face value and responded honestly. The post was a complaint about gaming. The support of the complaint was a scenario that a game was stopped for an hour to look up some rule.

I didnt slam him, only the opinions that gaming is any more time intensive- expensive than any other hobby. I slammed the opinion that he should be paid for the time and energy spent learning to play. I slammed the concept that to have a quality rpg experience, preparation wasnt necessary. I pointed out (maybe unsympathetically) that the OP seemed to want a video game.. no front end work and instant gratification/ payoffs.  I interjected that playing video games isnt gaming (just like watching a movie isnt reading.) Maybe you can channel his "feelings" a little better. I took his position at face value.

Adam wasnt jumped. He put forth an argument with the conclusion that he needed different game systems. I merely  questioned his basic assumptions. I took his reasons for wanting different games more seriously than the "what new game should I get."

My not a gamer comment was follows:

If you truly lament the "time and energy" spent in learning games,  You are not a gamer.

If anyone really disagrees with that statement I am dumbfounded as to why they would read/post to a board called Nola RPG.

Does anyone here honestly regret learning the rules of a game they play?
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Re: What is with all the systems?
Reply #14 - Jul 20th, 2010 at 1:52pm
 
ok ok, I dont want to get into a pissing contest. I should have framed the OP better. Just to clarify, I was trying to make a smart-ass remark about the $$$ spent on roleplaying, that it is a hobby, and the big name companies are clearly taking advantage of players by over marketing to us for every last dime. So, my search has become a quest for a universal rpg system that is innovative enough to handle a wide variety of settings and characters while streamlining rules for fast, exciting game play. My remarks reflected what I have found in most systems thus far; very fleshed out rules for a very specific setting that require more referencing during play than I like. And, no matter how you slice it, no gamer is getting any bang for their buck. The cost to content ratio is absolutley rediculous.

You know, maybe we should unionise and fight back. lol Cheesy

Oh, and about the time spent learning all the hundreds of settings and their seperate rules: I do not think it makes me any less of a gamer to want to only spend the necissary time on a hobby. Because that is what an rpg is, a hobby. I am not a writer, developer, or publisher. And I do have other things to spend my time on. It is in no way absurd in my opinion to put gaming in its place along with all the other activities I do. With that said, we are looking for people to sign up for this year's soccer league. Anyone want to leave the house and run around? Its really fun Smiley
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