So I just started a new 3.5 campaign, but I'm thinking about switching to 4th ed.  The reason being that the majority of the group consists of very inexperienced players.  I am more familiar with 3.5, but there are some aspects of 4th that I like and have included into my house rules.  My main concern is that I would have to change some aspects of the world to fit the rules better and I would have to invest a decent amount of money into buying the books.  What should I do?

Have you looked at Pathfinder?

I'm having an initial meetup with some folks this weekend for a game I'll be running.  They are all new to gaming and are really just more curious than anything else.  One of the guys is a former WoW junkie, so he has an idea about how RPG systems work (kind of), but that's the highest level of experience (derp) in this new group.

Relevance:  in a conversation with a couple of these new players I had the other night, I explained to them the differences between the systems in order to get a feel for what they might enjoy the most.  I explained that pre-4e versions were less grid/board game-style combat oriented and that it's not even necessary to play with miniatures, as well as all the other differences that we've all discussed in gory detail both together on the site as well as with our other gamer friends.  They both seemed considerably more interested in Pathfinder than 4th edition.

I'll be running Pathfinder with these newcomers.

This is my opinion and there are many who disagree with me.


I use to play wow, a LOT. I quit cold turkey so I know what your only gamer knows.

4.0 was designed to be a dumb downed/simplified version of a D&D the D&D game system in order to attract new players to the game who do not want to be overwhelmed by rules, and are used to a more wowish nature.

It also seeks to not overwhelm new players with the "culture shock" of a not cutesy and realistic/mature game. I am not saying 3.5 is all the realistic or mature, but it is much better in my opinion; less for kids.

Now the problem with this is when new adults want to get into gaming they are doing it not just to hack in slash or to hang out with their friends, but to roleplay and enjoy mature action. I don't believe 4.0 facilitates this well enough, although it does a better job with young teens.

Now people will argue with me and say "it is NOT about the game system, it is about the people, and about the roleplaying", but all these people are seasoned gamers and might be out of touch to understand a table of people who've never played. The point I am making is this.. when you don't know how to roleplay, the book, and its rules and suggestions, take the lead at training people to roleplay. And I would not want to roleplay with anyone who was trained with 4.0.

I would want a more mature book, with more serious rules, inculcating older adult players. Otherwise they might lose interest faster.

While some gamers think that 4th is "dumbed down" its a hard sell to convince me of that.  It could be that the less robust skill system is their issue though I think that it enables role playing rather than restricts character design.

I would say that 4th ed combat requires much more teamwork, strategy and cooperation than previous incarnations. The combat tools that each character has may be more defined which may be the source of the "dumbed down" feelings and defined roles for classes help give context which some more experienced players may find limiting. (though part of this may be an attachment to previous titles...a striker wizard is a warlock though "in character" there doesnt have to be a difference.

The thing with 4th eddition that many experienced players dislikes is that being a good player relies on more than character acting. You can be a great roleplayer and in 4th games be an obviously poor player durng combat. Its tough for someone with 20 years of D&D experience to be confronted with their lack of "tactical skill."

The standardization of effects coupled with "game balanced" character archtypes has a profound effect on gameplay. Some players will be less effective at both resource management and tactical application of resources. Its a shift from a game system which traditionally rewarded player experience and meta-game knowledge.

If I had brand new players I might reach for the basic set (available on ebay for 15 bucks?) the one that came with B2 keep on the boarderlands. Character creation is simple, action is fast-paced and involves less outlay of funds.

Still if you think that switching from 3.5  to 4th because you believe it is easier for new players, I think you may be chasing  the wind. While the effects are standardized the number of them coupled with when they become available (i.e. 1st level characters can deal with stuns, blinded, regeneration, ongoing damage, imobilization, grabs, slides, pushes, pulls....the list goes on) is a lot for a group of all new players to take on.

Another thing to consider regarding having to change and wanting to change for anyone is if you want to take the time and effort to do it.  It has nothing do to with who she is related to IF you don't want to do it even if she was your girlfriend/wife/sister-in-law, etc. 

IF you do not want to figure out what type of character she could be, to be werewolf like.

if you are not willing to adjust the rules, i.e. get basic stats, powers for a werewolf in 4th, use certain at will, encounter, daily, and utility powers from DIFFERENT character classes that closely reflect the type she was in previous games...

If the hybrid character or set character classes don't fit her at all.  (Personally or game-wise)

I had thought about using other class powers for some time before the (hybrids) showed up in 4th edition, so know that some powers and abilities would work so much better in different classes.  I also like being able to work with people on making a character that they want to play and have fun with.  If that is the only way she will play is to be that type of character, exactly that character, then well in my opinion and as a DM I would apologize and say, sorry she can't use that character.  There is a limit and she should understand that it is not easy to make so many changes just for one character...not to mention how unbalancing her being a werewolf at first level would be compared to the other characters.

Sorry if I rambled and ask away if I was unclear about specific ideas...

True enough david, though I think that being a werewolf is a story element and if it fits within the dm's story I dont see why changing flavor/fluff to fit a concept hurts. You could just re-flavor the druid representation into a werewolf or if the player wants to be a werewolf avenger say:

example:

Human Werewolf (Hybrid Druid/avenger) Lvl 1
Powers: (wildshape)-werewolf form
At will: Bond of pursuit , Pounce(wolf form), grasping claws (wolf form)

Encounter: Close to the kill (wolf form)
Daily:Oath of the final duel
feats:talent option armor of faith, (unarmored agility?)

so we have an unarmored combatant with a very high AC has a few reasonable attacks with weapons (that give bonuses even when in wolf form) and can go into wild-shape for 3 more attacks. reasonable combat ability heck if she wanted she could trade out final duel for summon pack wolf. As she goes up in levels she could get more/better wolf powers and some avenger powers and even some other non-wolf druid powers if she wanted. The character is legal in 4th, balanced so not to steal the spotlight from everyone else but just about as Wolfy as a first level character can get can get...looks like a werewolf sometimes, tough to hit in combat... cant make anyone else a wolf and the whole silver thing is a stretch but you can rp it anyway you want.

So tried to handle the situation last night.  She wants a 3.5 werewolf.  She wants the ability bumps.  Part of that is my fault.  The first game she ever played was a 3.5 campaign of mine where Lycanthorpes where commonplace so half the party was some type of weresomething.  The other half had some type of awesomeness, uber-weapons, special items, etc.  A couple players turned out to be power gamers and broke the system a couple months in so we had to call it quits.  That's what she wants and nothing else will do for her.  So she probably won't be playing.