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diagonals (Read 5620 times)
Liam
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diagonals
Jun 26th, 2008 at 6:38pm
 
Now that we aren't at the table surrounded by goblins....   do we want to change the diagonal rule so that movement and spells use the 1/2/1/2/... rule for squares?

[I know we wont resolve it here but make your comments and we can decide before the first die drop on saturday.]
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david
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Re: diagonals
Reply #1 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:05am
 
i think the 1/2/1/2 system is much closer to what would form a circular area than the YxY square setup that is generated using one-for-one on diagonals. i'm not worried either way, as i don't think it will affect anything but movement and firing range. for area of effect spells, if it is 3x3 or less, it should still be squares, but on 4x4 and larger perhaps remove corners to make it more circular. unless, of course, the spell might be a square or other shape such as a fog cloud or whatever.


x x x              x x
x x x      and   x x
x x x


   x x              x x x x
x x x x     or    x x x
x x x x            x x
   x x               x

sort of like that, if that makes sense.  anyhow, for movement and range, the 1/2/1/2 is what i'd recommend, just to make it slightly more to scale and consistent in linear situations.
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Re: diagonals
Reply #2 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 12:35am
 
Note that you can get a monocolumn font by wrapping your text in the code marker.  Just highlight the lines and click the # sign above the post entry box.


3x3 would still be a square since its formed by a burst 1, that is, 1 square from the center.


There is a problem we have to decide.  Its changes blast.  Burst is easy.  You just count from the center but blast X is a XbyX square. 

So a blast 3 would be a 3x3 square.

A blast 5 should behave like a burst 3 that doesn't center on you.  (You follow that?)  That is, you pick the center square and go out 3 in all directions and you have your shape.

But what about blast 4 or blast 6?   What squares are removed from blast 4 and by how did you decide?

And this effects what the origin square is since it should be adjacent to at least one affected square.  Cutting corners out means a reduction in where you can place the blast.   

I know how I'd play it, I just can't explain it.  Something like for odd sized blasts you do a 1/2 burst with a center that can be 1/2 distance and counting diagonals as 1s for distance only.   For even its simular but you count subtract one and use one of the four origin squares.


Or it might be easier to say:  place it where you can do it using the 4E square rule and cut corners from the center as appropriate.
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Re: diagonals
Reply #3 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 1:24am
 
thanks for the code tip. anyway, the way i was imagining it was that a blast 5 would be basically a circle (provided another shape isn't also appropriate) with a diameter of 5, rather than a square with a width of five, meaning you could hack the four corners off, giving more of a circle shape, you only lose 4 squares of area, and it isn't so squarish then. the diagonal would be 3 squares, but if the center square is 1, then the other two are 2s, making for a diagonal of 5, so it works pretty well for that purpose, i think. if i did the math right, that is.

Code:
  x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x
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Re: diagonals
Reply #4 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 1:32am
 
oops, that really didn't even cover you'r big concern of blast 4 and 6. uhh.....hmmm....


Code:
  x x 
x x x x
x x x x
x x


and

Code:
  x x x x
x x x x x x
x x x x x x
x x x x x x
x x x x x x
x x x x


or

Code:
    x x 
x x x x
x x x x x x
x x x x x x
x x x x
x x


or something. the second one takes a lot of area out, though i guess it is still better than nothing. i don't know. we could always cut out circles of various diameters and have it affect the squares it touches 50% or more of. i know, i know, i ended that sentence with a preposition, but that's still the best i could do at the time.
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Re: diagonals
Reply #5 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 1:34am
 
I did a little bit of research on this issue this week.  Obviously no grid system is geometrically ideal.  Hexes have some real funky geometrical problems when you move at imperfect angles or at close, straight edges.  1,2,1,2 square system is actually less accurate than a 1 for 1 system at certain angles.  1 for 1 square system is rediculous for perfect diagonals and for very large organic shapes.

I really don't mind the rules as written.  The geometric problems are only really noticable at long, perfect diagonals.  An area effect in a 4 by 4 or a 5 by 5 square feels as organic to me as an area effect in a 3 by 3 square does.  Cutting off the corners doesn't make it much more of a circlular shape.  For blasts it makes sense to me that the far corners would be included in damage.  A dragon's breath attack usually goes farther forward than sideways in most media.  Rarely does it fan out like in 3.X.

If I had my druthers I would suggest a 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2 system.  For close effects and small area effects the rules would work as written, but for longer diagonal movement some distance would be lost and for larger area effects some corners would be left out of the blast.

That's my 2 cents.
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Re: diagonals
Reply #6 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 2:32am
 
Well you know how i feel about it. It will be a consent annoyance of disproportion. Some things i can live with, but this seems to just be in insult to the intelligence of role players.

Burst

3.5 used corner lines to denote the blast center, and on page 308-209 of the 3.5DMG they show pictures of how they are supposed to look. Since we would be doing them starting from a square I am guessing they would look much like Large, Huge long and tall would look.

From how i understand it, you pick the square and count out steps normally as you would if you were moving (first diagonal 1, second 2, and so on.)

Code:
000+++++++++
99900+++++++
8889900+++++
777889900+++
666778890+++
5556677890++
4445567890++
33344567890+
22234567890+
111234567890
1O1234567890
111234567890


This would be an example of a II quadrant circle. At the bottom left you have the 'O" for origin of the blast/burst, and the number are the square counts out from the origin. The zeros at the out regions stand for 10, and +s are for over 10 range, which I don't think there is.

So 1 = 1burst, 2=2burst, 3=3burst, 4=4burst... I think the burst are always odd numbers so they will fit in a square with an origin.

This is really easy to do, and will only need to be done rarely on a few enemies in the outlaying diagonal direction.

Blast

I don't see why blast does not work the same exact way mostly.

You just count out in a 90 or 45 degree angle from your characters origin, the distance of the blast. It is kind of like the examples in the 3.5DMG on page 307.

Blast twenty is the extreme example, and that would be best done with a piece of string, which could be done rocket fast. You would just measure out 20 squares distance with a string, and put one finger on the character, and the other finger out 20 inches, and just do a 90 Degree swipe. Everything in the inside gets hit.

But for blasts like for example blast 5.

Code:
---4++
--345+
-12345
012345
-12345
--345+
---4++


Code:
-55++++
-4455++
-33445+
-22345+
-112345
-012345
-------


Pretty much what they did in 3.5. Take just a second to count and sort it out.
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Re: diagonals
Reply #7 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 2:43am
 
"The geometric problems are only really noticable at long, perfect diagonals."

I noticed an example in game where Davs character evaded an AoO because he was able to move out of the characters threat range and move back into it in order to flank him. I know it is not ground breaking but all he really did was at just a half a square to is over movement and he did something that can be quite devastating if you are a rogue. 

If it can manifest its self in a characters normal 6 square movement, I think it will be very noticeable. I thought about it, and there are quite a a few ways to use digitals to avoid threat ranges.

"1,2,1,2 square system is actually less accurate than a 1 for 1 system at certain angles. "

That is very rare, there is only like 4 points in a 360 degree unit circle were 1:1 is better. 112112 is still not as good as 1212.

"Obviously no grid system is geometrically ideal. "

I think you have a point there, for those big blasts I think we should just use a string. Really, i was testing it out, it works REALLY quickly and is easy to judge. Nothing is as fast as using big as 20x20 square as explosive areas, but i think a string method is really fast.

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Re: diagonals
Reply #8 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 2:48am
 
the diagrams in the 3.5 dmg work for me, and are pretty similar to what i was describing, at least to me. perhaps i did it wrong. in any event, your code diagrams just came out as a jumble of numbers, pluses and minuses, so they didn't help me. but then, perhaps my diagram only looks right on my computer and i'm the only one that could decipher my own intended meaning. hmmm.... i guess in the end, it makes no difference to me. whether it is 1/1/1/1, 1/2/1/2, or 1/1/2/1/1/2, or anything else, it is just a means to an end: victory for me and my people!
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Re: diagonals
Reply #9 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 2:57am
 
My code did not come out? That sucks. I am using firefox. It looks good to me.
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Re: diagonals
Reply #10 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 3:10am
 
Quote:
Blast

I don't see why blast does not work the same exact way mostly.

You just count out in a 90 or 45 degree angle from your characters origin, the distance of the blast. It is kind of like the examples in the 3.5DMG on page 307.

Blast twenty is the extreme example, and that would be best done with a piece of string, which could be done rocket fast. You would just measure out 20 squares distance with a string, and put one finger on the character, and the other finger out 20 inches, and just do a 90 Degree swipe. Everything in the inside gets hit.

But for blasts like for example blast 5.

Code:
---4++
--345+
-12345
012345
-12345
--345+
---4++


Code:
-55++++
-4455++
-33445+
-22345+
-112345
-012345
-------


Pretty much what they did in 3.5. Take just a second to count and sort it out.


That's not how blast works.  It isn't a cone, its a square so this change means a mage gets about half of what he did before and thats too drastic... wait, except you made up for it on the edges...hmm...

I think the intent of blast is to be a burst, its just not centered on you, but centered on something near you.  The way they limit it is to say you must touch one edge of a blast.  So I think a better way to make the diagonal change would be to let the mage do a burst of the right size and bump his range by the radius, round up.

For example:

blast 5:

You did a sort of cone shape.

Code:
---4++
--345+
-12345
012345
-12345
--345+
---4++


A blast 5 is really a burst 3.  So let me do a 5x5 square as a burst (i.e. trim 3 from each corner) and give me range 3.  Now I can center that burst on any square I can get to in 3 and so it shouldn't hit me but it will be next to me.  In effect, I think that gives you the same 5x5 sqaure as before, I can cover the same area, except I lose the corners.
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Re: diagonals
Reply #11 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 5:44am
 
I did some calculations, and I have to take back what I said about 112112. It really is not that bad. I made a rather large spreadsheet to prove it. 1212 is better at a closer range, 112112 is better farther out, but not so much in the middle.

Is there any reason I can not add an attachment?
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Re: diagonals
Reply #12 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 6:52am
 
There really is always going to be distortion as long as you measure distance and space occupied by squares.  1,1,2 results in correcting the silly angular distortion without causing as much disruption to the flow as a 1,2,1,2 system would.

After attempting to draw several blast zones on graph paper, I have been unable to find a good way to change the way blast works without needlessly nerfing the power of blast effects.  3.X "cone-shaped bursts" are not good representations of the blast effect rules as intended for dnd 4th.  The only blast types I have seen in the PHB after briefly glancing through a few classes are blast 3 and blast 5.  I think both of them work fine as written and need not be altered to suit geometric preferences.

Cutting a few corners off of large bursts would be easy enough to do, but I think it would be more fair to the AoEers to determine bursts by 1,1,2 than 1,2,1,2.
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Re: diagonals
Reply #13 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 11:50am
 
i see what your code was, the numbers being range of effect rather than random integers. i wasn't looking for cone-shaped blasts which is why it didn't make sense. there was no error on your part, i just read it wrong. but i'm not going to admit that, so assume you fracked it up.

i think liam has it worked out pretty well: a blast is basically a burst that touches you on one edge, but does not effect you otherwise, so that the area is close to accurate. and if most effects are blast 3 or 5, then it'll be easy to figure and place wherever one desires. losing corners may suck in an economic efficiency point of view, but in a more realistic view (as realistic as a fireball spell can be, anyway) losing the corners just makes planning more important in using a blast effect. again, i think if we are concerned with the area affected that greatly, it can be measured and if a square that the user wants affected is not covered at least 50%, then it is considered that the occupant of the square maneuvers to prevent damage or whatever.

another simpler way to do it would be to increase the victim's defense, generally reflex, for squares in the corners, but leave the effect of blast 5 a 5x5 square. an example would be reflex for most squares, and ref+3 or some such for the corner squares indicating it is harder to affect an occupant that is on the fringe. just another thought to complicate the process of figuring this out.
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Re: diagonals
Reply #14 - Jun 27th, 2008 at 3:31pm
 
Quote:
Is there any reason I can not add an attachment?


Each forum area needs to have attachment enabled as a positive action.  I only enabled it in the character section for GURPS.
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