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I don't know what to say to this except that I have similar feelings about 4e. Many things about it feel like a mimic of many common elements from video game RPGs. Fortunately, it is still more fun to gather around the table to play than to plug in a headset and click the mouse...

Last I checked, there was no law stating it to be mandatory to jump to a new game.

Red Priest wrote on Oct 25^th, 2010 at 5:14am:

Last I checked, there was no law stating it to be mandatory to jump to a new game.

Good thing too!

On #92 I dont know. I think his first summary..Its almost unrecognizable maybe true.  His second point doesnt make any sense. Its not for beginners but its for beginners?

His point about  role-playing is exactly what leads to poor role-playing in my experience. While play-acting (no funny voices required) is a part of the DnD experience it is a skill that varies from player to player. If your focus is simply on the play acting you dont need character sheets...or any rules at all. You could play monopoly as a role playing game.

In the context of a fantasy game though some system to resolve non-combat encounters is essential. Uncharismatic non-diplomatic characters played by good rp'er become de-facto leaders of the group, players smarter than their characters (barbarian Im looking at you) solve the complex riddle, perceptive players who low wisdom thieves recall foreshadowing. Unless you construct some way to resolve non-combat actions these incongruous story events are common place. This doesnt supplant role-playing it adjudicates it. The well spoken player who plays an oaf might say the right things but his tone strikes the duke the wrong way.

Still much of the "copied" elements from online gaming (character balance, combat/encounter roles, "builds", resource management) have been prevalent throughout game systems since Odnd. Heck even 1st ed tried to balance by using differing experience charts. (At 1250 xp the thief was a better tank than the fighter.)

Its a decent game system at its core. Does it deserve to wear the mantle of "Dungeons and Dragons?" Guess thats largely up to each person. Its probably better balanced than previous editions and certainly easier to run. It is a marketing device (10 books in 2 years) but nearly everything either is or tries to be these days.

One thing I notice is you can be bad at combat in 4e. Tension though tactical combat plays a bigger role than in previous editions.  You can play 4ed without a robust story (it seems encouraged to the war-gamer crowd) But I'm not sure thats anything new. Heck anyone who played as a kid in the 70's...yes im that old..who says they didnt see if their decked out 18/00 3rd fighter couldnt take down an ogre solo is either a liar or played at least one wizard who got killed by a house-cat.

Nothing beats good 'ole fashioned home brewed games with house rules! Just follow the simple rule of K.I.S.S. and reserve rule checking for after the session. Other than that, it is my personal opinion that DM's should be on their toes at all times, quick to make a decision or call out an outcome, and only tell players "no" after 99 "yes's" have been given out. Cheers!

Player - "Can the Ogre see me?"

DM- "Yes, he's looking right at you!"

Player - (Disgruntled look) "But I rolled a 20 on my stealth check! I said I was hidding behind the boulder."

DM - "Sorry,  he must have seen your shadow from the moonlight, you should have asked 'can I sneak by him?' We still have 54 yeses to go."

Heh, all depends on your game's focus. Some groups focus on the "RULES." Some groups focus on trying to win. Its up to you. I know consistency is a big deal for some folks. Look at the diagonal movement threads for some idea about how seriously some folks take the simulationist vrs. story focus. If I had a nickel for every time I heard "That DM is out to get us." or saw someone get upset on an unfavorable die roll I'd..... buy pathfinder.

I guess its up to each player to decide if any group or play-style is right for them.  I know from experience that a less robustly balanced system can be ideal with some groups but all it takes is one power-gamer to munchkin-out and the game suffers for the entire group. Players start feeling like their characters are merely sidekicks to the munchkin. “Ahh Monk-Sorcerer –chosen one” I’m looking at you.

I guess my opinion on the new edition is that the combat system is far more balanced and focused than ever before. The Nuts & Bolts mechanics of it can appear similar to online games where radically different abilities have impacts on successful strategies.  The robustness of the combat resolution system could lead one to think that Role-playing is eschewed. I disagree, I feel it allows role-playing  and the tactical wargame (combat) to coexist and can be equally emphasized without sacrificing a character’s development in either.

I am more story orientated than simulation focused however. I can see how without detailed crafting rules some groups might have not enjoy the new edition.  For me I’d much rather have a cut scene watching the characters fletch arrows, skin the giant alligator, or built a raft rather than have a documentary that runs  20 + 3d4 hours – skill check result.

I want wizards to be slinging spells not aiming crossbows. I want Dwarves to be taking oaths, and rouges tumbling out of the shadows. I could use less of “What are all my bonuses oh I forgot to add that in.”  but for experienced gamers that’s more a matter of preparation and player skill than system limitations.

I’said it before I could run pretty much the same game I run with coinflips.  I might have a tough time getting players, but I could run it.

I completely see your points Hew, I guess I'm just the type of gamer that prefers creativity during combat as well. I am also the type of DM that allows for anything to happen as long as it's not completely impracticle or retarded. In that reguard, the "powers" and "tactical combat" just feels constrictive to me, and since the emphasis is greater in this version than previous ones, it does feel more like an unfamiliar game. Another thing I would like to point out about the new edition is that everything in it seems to have it's "badass" rating turned up. For example, gnomes and halflings now look and feel more cool.
All in all, I think we are just getting older, and the marketing is targeting a demographic that we have all grown out of. This is not a bad thing. WotC is a company that is looking at the bottom line, and well, demand and popularity change with the times as well. To combat this, like I said before, make a home game with house rules. This allows the game to be exactly what you want, instead of waiting for a prepackaged one to arrive on the bookshelves.

Adam wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 11:12pm:

All in all, I think we are just getting older, and the marketing is targeting a demographic that we have all grown out of.

true that

Adam,

I see often times players feel constricted to flavor text in powers without realizing the effect is the the rules part.

Prone is one that happens regularly "but it says I knock him down"  "well yeah rules wise he is prone he'll need a movement action to stand up, all the penalties apply, but ahhhh your a halfling and you arent going to knock a giant millipede prone story wise.)

I'm a fan of tell me what you want to do and we'll find a way to make it work as opposed to trying to step out of the story to "play and game."

To be honest though I made much more home-rule game efforts in my teens and twenties than now in my 40's. Heck my homebrew DnD setting is almost 30 years old.

Why did you stop the home-rule efforts as you got older? Just too much work?

I write about 200 pages a week for work. I just dont have it in me to proofread anything for fun anymore. (you can tell from my hastily drafted posts. Og has taken to call me Mr. Hobby, I play music, Chess, keep fish, follow sports, have a family. All these things take time and if my name was going on it I'd want it to be fairly presentable. Heck just trying to rewrite my campaign guide post-katrina has taken me forever and a day.

On the Halfling knocking a giant millipede prone...I say it can happen as it says both rules and storywise....here's WHY I say that it can work...the movement within the five feet is small but an amount of speed and power can be generated in such a small space and the creature, as big as it is was rising up and turned, just as the halfling attacked it, losing balance and it's own bulk, allow it to fall over and become prone.  Both aspects of the story and game just came together...what do you think Leigh?  It could happen...

I've tried a similar argument with people before.  They started sputtering "yea... but.... well...."

The 4.0e forum was removed?

was it? i wonder why...

Others are gone as well, e.g. the old school section and the White Wolf section.

There was a White Wolf section...  right?

There is an announcement about it.  Something about forum boards being deactivated.  Maybe you should post what's missing in that thread.

I am reading through the Pathfinder Core Rulebook right now. How WotC tricked people into staying loyal after this magnificent game was released is beyond me. Pathfinder is just amazing in comparison IMO from just reading through the mechanics. I can't wait to play it and see how it feels.