So I just started a new 3.5 campaign, but I'm thinking about switching to 4th ed.  The reason being that the majority of the group consists of very inexperienced players.  I am more familiar with 3.5, but there are some aspects of 4th that I like and have included into my house rules.  My main concern is that I would have to change some aspects of the world to fit the rules better and I would have to invest a decent amount of money into buying the books.  What should I do?

A friend who I now game with using 4th edition was 2, 3 and 3.5 back in the day but we used a campaign and world that is all his, locations, and specific histories.  He converts it all and run with all 4th edition rules.  I am running a 4th edition with a huge mix of new players, 3 and 3.5 players and I have developed my own NPC's as we all do but keep the basic world and history as it is.  If something I don't like comes up, we can deal with it as is or change it later after talking or just deciding straight up not to use it or to to adopt it into your world.

playing in the world, I can see how some people's feathers are all ruffled and I also like some things about 4th but the deciding factor is the DM and the people you play with...find a good group and all works out ok.

Have you looked at Pathfinder?

Pathfinder is a great improvement over 3.5. And it puts 4.0 to shame.

I'm having an initial meetup with some folks this weekend for a game I'll be running.  They are all new to gaming and are really just more curious than anything else.  One of the guys is a former WoW junkie, so he has an idea about how RPG systems work (kind of), but that's the highest level of experience (derp) in this new group.

Relevance:  in a conversation with a couple of these new players I had the other night, I explained to them the differences between the systems in order to get a feel for what they might enjoy the most.  I explained that pre-4e versions were less grid/board game-style combat oriented and that it's not even necessary to play with miniatures, as well as all the other differences that we've all discussed in gory detail both together on the site as well as with our other gamer friends.  They both seemed considerably more interested in Pathfinder than 4th edition.

I'll be running Pathfinder with these newcomers.

One person doesn't want to switch, because she can't play the type of character she wants. (werewolf)  She is a very difficult person to play with, but she also has the most experience in the group. (and she is my cousin and my fiance's best friend).  The rest of the group wants to play 4th ed. (one of the remaining members being my fiance).

This is my opinion and there are many who disagree with me.


I use to play wow, a LOT. I quit cold turkey so I know what your only gamer knows.

4.0 was designed to be a dumb downed/simplified version of a D&D the D&D game system in order to attract new players to the game who do not want to be overwhelmed by rules, and are used to a more wowish nature.

It also seeks to not overwhelm new players with the "culture shock" of a not cutesy and realistic/mature game. I am not saying 3.5 is all the realistic or mature, but it is much better in my opinion; less for kids.

Now the problem with this is when new adults want to get into gaming they are doing it not just to hack in slash or to hang out with their friends, but to roleplay and enjoy mature action. I don't believe 4.0 facilitates this well enough, although it does a better job with young teens.

Now people will argue with me and say "it is NOT about the game system, it is about the people, and about the roleplaying", but all these people are seasoned gamers and might be out of touch to understand a table of people who've never played. The point I am making is this.. when you don't know how to roleplay, the book, and its rules and suggestions, take the lead at training people to roleplay. And I would not want to roleplay with anyone who was trained with 4.0.

I would want a more mature book, with more serious rules, inculcating older adult players. Otherwise they might lose interest faster.

I have played both so I'm familiar with 4th ed rules.  My roommates have a 4th ed game with players that have been playing since 3rd ed came out and their games contain a large amount of roleplaying.  Three different members of the group take turns DM'ing in different parts of the world.  All three games are RP heavy.  So in my experience, it is more about the players/dm and less about the system. My cousin doesn't want to switch simply because she wants to be a werewolf.  I tried to show her the shifter race but she doesn't want to be furry, at least not all the time. 

Basically, what I want to know is, do you guys think I should switch to please my fiance and other members of the group, or stay with 3.5 and keep my cousin happy and not lose a member of the group?

While some gamers think that 4th is "dumbed down" its a hard sell to convince me of that.  It could be that the less robust skill system is their issue though I think that it enables role playing rather than restricts character design.

I would say that 4th ed combat requires much more teamwork, strategy and cooperation than previous incarnations. The combat tools that each character has may be more defined which may be the source of the "dumbed down" feelings and defined roles for classes help give context which some more experienced players may find limiting. (though part of this may be an attachment to previous titles...a striker wizard is a warlock though "in character" there doesnt have to be a difference.

The thing with 4th eddition that many experienced players dislikes is that being a good player relies on more than character acting. You can be a great roleplayer and in 4th games be an obviously poor player durng combat. Its tough for someone with 20 years of D&D experience to be confronted with their lack of "tactical skill."

The standardization of effects coupled with "game balanced" character archtypes has a profound effect on gameplay. Some players will be less effective at both resource management and tactical application of resources. Its a shift from a game system which traditionally rewarded player experience and meta-game knowledge.

If I had brand new players I might reach for the basic set (available on ebay for 15 bucks?) the one that came with B2 keep on the boarderlands. Character creation is simple, action is fast-paced and involves less outlay of funds.

Still if you think that switching from 3.5  to 4th because you believe it is easier for new players, I think you may be chasing  the wind. While the effects are standardized the number of them coupled with when they become available (i.e. 1st level characters can deal with stuns, blinded, regeneration, ongoing damage, imobilization, grabs, slides, pushes, pulls....the list goes on) is a lot for a group of all new players to take on.

Another thing to consider is the 4th ed incarnation of the druid. Or a hybrid druid-whatever she wants. Its easy enough to change the flavor of anything. The 4th ed druid's shape change is available at first level this combined with whatever "class" she wanted to be before makes the whole wanna be a werewolf thing easy.

Doesnt address your costs though.

Another thing to consider regarding having to change and wanting to change for anyone is if you want to take the time and effort to do it.  It has nothing do to with who she is related to IF you don't want to do it even if she was your girlfriend/wife/sister-in-law, etc. 

IF you do not want to figure out what type of character she could be, to be werewolf like.

if you are not willing to adjust the rules, i.e. get basic stats, powers for a werewolf in 4th, use certain at will, encounter, daily, and utility powers from DIFFERENT character classes that closely reflect the type she was in previous games...

If the hybrid character or set character classes don't fit her at all.  (Personally or game-wise)

I had thought about using other class powers for some time before the (hybrids) showed up in 4th edition, so know that some powers and abilities would work so much better in different classes.  I also like being able to work with people on making a character that they want to play and have fun with.  If that is the only way she will play is to be that type of character, exactly that character, then well in my opinion and as a DM I would apologize and say, sorry she can't use that character.  There is a limit and she should understand that it is not easy to make so many changes just for one character...not to mention how unbalancing her being a werewolf at first level would be compared to the other characters.

Sorry if I rambled and ask away if I was unclear about specific ideas...

my own opinion, skewed as it may be, is that if she wants to play a werewolf, she should find a werewolf WoD game. unless all the characters have the same lycanthrope template (3.x, pathfinder, 4e, whatever) then the werewolf would be completely different in that she'd have the same race and class powers/abilities, and ALSO be a werewolf on top of that. if she cannot understand that you aren't playing werewolf, then perhaps this isnt' the game for her. a player, regardless of relation to the DM, that won't at least try to bend a little to fit into the game isn't exactly a strong fit for a game, i'd think.

i don't mean to sound mean to one player, but really, if it isn't fair in any system, you shouldn't allow it. make a rules set available, with or without lycanthropes, and make that system THE RULES, not just a minor suggestion by a bystander. you're the DM, make the game yours and make it good for the players.

any system would work, as the rules dictate combat and the RP aspect is up to the players and DMs more than any game system. RIFTS, GURPS, D&D (any edition), WoD, all the others, all need roleplayers to use the rules they give to have a game. a d&d 4e game can be played with no dice if the people involved wish to roleplay, so really, just pick the system that most are familiar with and that works best for the most players.

True enough david, though I think that being a werewolf is a story element and if it fits within the dm's story I dont see why changing flavor/fluff to fit a concept hurts. You could just re-flavor the druid representation into a werewolf or if the player wants to be a werewolf avenger say:

example:

Human Werewolf (Hybrid Druid/avenger) Lvl 1
Powers: (wildshape)-werewolf form
At will: Bond of pursuit , Pounce(wolf form), grasping claws (wolf form)

Encounter: Close to the kill (wolf form)
Daily:Oath of the final duel
feats:talent option armor of faith, (unarmored agility?)

so we have an unarmored combatant with a very high AC has a few reasonable attacks with weapons (that give bonuses even when in wolf form) and can go into wild-shape for 3 more attacks. reasonable combat ability heck if she wanted she could trade out final duel for summon pack wolf. As she goes up in levels she could get more/better wolf powers and some avenger powers and even some other non-wolf druid powers if she wanted. The character is legal in 4th, balanced so not to steal the spotlight from everyone else but just about as Wolfy as a first level character can get can get...looks like a werewolf sometimes, tough to hit in combat... cant make anyone else a wolf and the whole silver thing is a stretch but you can rp it anyway you want.

that's a good way to look at it. i was thinking of a character that has a class (wizard, paladin, whatever type of human [or whatever race] the player wants) that becomes lycanthropic. if you just mean a reflavored druid or a shifter character, that could work if that is what the player wants. a reflavored druid/avenger though is not a wizard and a shifter is not an eladrin, so it would be railroading the player into a role that might not be desired. that is what i was thinking though: an eladrin wizard werewolf would need an advanced template, and give the player both a powerful mage, and a powerful supernatural being, while Fitor the Brave just has a big sword and Henry the Pious just has the backing of his god.

your solution works, but only if the player plays along. i like mine though because i'm a megalomaniac and don't mind telling a player "no, you cannot be a werewolf; that's just too much at this point in the adventure. maybe later after fighting werewolves."

So tried to handle the situation last night.  She wants a 3.5 werewolf.  She wants the ability bumps.  Part of that is my fault.  The first game she ever played was a 3.5 campaign of mine where Lycanthorpes where commonplace so half the party was some type of weresomething.  The other half had some type of awesomeness, uber-weapons, special items, etc.  A couple players turned out to be power gamers and broke the system a couple months in so we had to call it quits.  That's what she wants and nothing else will do for her.  So she probably won't be playing.

Thats to bad. It sounds like the player isnt as interested in playing the game for the story as she is about being the "awesome one."  That visceral feeling of power is only as effective as the story lets it be though. Rolling a d8 for damage that kills a minion can be "tearing its head off" or a simple punch as the Dm portrays. If the rules are getting in the way of the  rp story then something isnt quite right.

My example was just showing that you can use creative builds to facilitate anything you want story wise (werewolf wizard, warlock, or sorcerer, invoker..etc can be made.) Flavor is there to be modified at will! Switching to eladrin may cost you a feat and an at will though the teleport and the low light vision could certainly be helpful.

If your not planning to run another Monty haul game and you switch up I would make up a "werewolf" character sheet just in case and then either have her play or not. She sounds more of a pain than I think most of us would want to put up with.

Not to continuously update this post though I thought one other issue with 4th edition I might mention is that it assumes a somewhat higher level of magic than say 1st edition. Raising the dead isn’t a big deal, first level characters can teleport around the battle field, etc. While you can re-flavor this sort of thing easily enough it is more work for you if you want to maintain a certain feel.

shawnmtoups wrote on May 5^th, 2010 at 7:18pm:

and I would have to invest a decent amount of money into buying the books.What should I do?

If you are concerned about the cost (especially since WotC has marketed them once again in ever releasing, endlessly expanding books designed to get all of our money) then go online. Many RPG books can be purchased in PDF format at reduced cost.

*whisper* Or, you can search for them on the torrents and get the PDF's that way  ;)

As for minis, Amazon is just amazing.  :)

Besides the online PDF's, if you want your books, Amazon's prices on 4th ed is awesome...PHB costs $34.95...or $23.00 plus shipping...etc...look them up...also, both the PHB and PHB2 can be had for the price of one book...It is a special deal they have.  As for the others, if you sign up for the DND insider, you can get any and all info to create characters, print monster stats and info to use, create custom monsters, modify existing ones to fit your campaign. 

Ebay is okay for some items if you don't mind used.  Usually damaged slightly or something like that...